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SherlockChronicles.orgThis is quite an obscure question, but I liked getting bogged down in details. I was wondering about the origin of the name "Asriel".
In Paradise Lost you find angels with names such as Uriel and Gabriel with the "iel" element meaning "of God": for example Uriel is Light of God.
I wondered if "Asriel" was formulated along the same lines or not with an ironic slant, like maybe enemy of God or something.
Or maybe I am on the wrong lines.
What do people think?
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What's in a name?
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What's in a name?
by Mahogany » Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:47 pm
"There is no such thing as a moral or immoral book. Books are either well written or badly written. That is all."
Oscar Wilde
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by Eulaca » Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:01 pm
Hmm i just found this:
The name Asriel could be derived from the Hebrew 'Asra'el, who, in the Jewish and Muslim tradition is the Angel of Death, who separated the soul from the body upon death. Alternatively Asriel, being an anagram for Israel, could refer to the English translation of the name Israel, given to Jacob in the Hebrew Bible - namely; "He who has struggled with God".
I've never thought about his name before.
The name Asriel could be derived from the Hebrew 'Asra'el, who, in the Jewish and Muslim tradition is the Angel of Death, who separated the soul from the body upon death. Alternatively Asriel, being an anagram for Israel, could refer to the English translation of the name Israel, given to Jacob in the Hebrew Bible - namely; "He who has struggled with God".
I've never thought about his name before.
Mr Hixxy on Hot Chip wrote:I saw Hot Chip, and it was Mashup!
As a Wise Man once said, "Blarg!"
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by Mahogany » Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:03 pm
Ah, that makes sense. Thank you. I always try and work out why characters have been given their names.
"There is no such thing as a moral or immoral book. Books are either well written or badly written. That is all."
Oscar Wilde
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by ArcT » Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:15 pm
The names are all symbolic of something. Asriel, like Hixxy said, is the Angel of Death (and wants to kill death, no? "Death is going to die"). Pantalaimon is all-forgiving (something he did to Lyra when she betrayed him), Kirjava is "many coloured", as her silky coat is.
Almost every name is symbolic of something.
Almost every name is symbolic of something.
WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN SINGERS. DANCERS AND MUSICIANS, ONE AND ALL, LISTENING TO THE CROONING THAT SWEELS FROM DEEP WITHIN AND SUCCUMBING TO THE SYMPHONY OF-
OF WHAT?
OF COURSE. OF LIFE.
OF WHAT?
OF COURSE. OF LIFE.
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by Mahogany » Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:11 pm
Well "Marisa" is an elaborated form of Maria, which is a form of Mary, a name which appears a lot in HDM eg Mary Malone and Stelmaria. Mary is the great mother. She is usually pictured as the "Madonna": she is inseparable from her role as the Mother of God, just as Marisa Coulter's actions are influenced by her relationship to Lyra. She keeps geting pulled back to her status as mother, which she finally has to accept.
that is only a theory, it may be wrong. I don't know what Coulter signifies.
And i also found this for Lyra:
The name of the constellation in the northern sky containing the star Vega. It is said to be shaped after the lyre of Orpheus
of course Orpheus ventured to the Underworld to find Euridice
I also found meaning for "Azriel": Help of God
that is only a theory, it may be wrong. I don't know what Coulter signifies.
And i also found this for Lyra:
The name of the constellation in the northern sky containing the star Vega. It is said to be shaped after the lyre of Orpheus
of course Orpheus ventured to the Underworld to find Euridice
I also found meaning for "Azriel": Help of God
"There is no such thing as a moral or immoral book. Books are either well written or badly written. That is all."
Oscar Wilde
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by ArcT » Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:45 pm
Coulter is just a name, as far as I'm aware.
WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN SINGERS. DANCERS AND MUSICIANS, ONE AND ALL, LISTENING TO THE CROONING THAT SWEELS FROM DEEP WITHIN AND SUCCUMBING TO THE SYMPHONY OF-
OF WHAT?
OF COURSE. OF LIFE.
OF WHAT?
OF COURSE. OF LIFE.
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ArcT - Opinions Administrator
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by Betty da Cello » Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:01 pm
Oh, this is great!
I always want to learn about the name's meanings...
Does Iorek Byrnison mean anything?
I always want to learn about the name's meanings...
Does Iorek Byrnison mean anything?
B. C.
My Daemon:
Name: Loupaigle
Form: Unsettled
But he likes to be a wolf or a falcon in daytime and a eagle owl at night. A baby seal when we sleep. In water, he is always an orca.
My Daemon:
Name: Loupaigle
Form: Unsettled
But he likes to be a wolf or a falcon in daytime and a eagle owl at night. A baby seal when we sleep. In water, he is always an orca.
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by ArcT » Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:25 pm
As far as I'm aware here, Iorek Byrnison is also just a name. Could be based on Igor (I-or in Iorek is similar to I-gor in Igor). Igor means "hero" in Norse, as it came originally from Scandanavia around the period of the Vikings.
This would be consistent with Iorek, and it's possible that Iorek is Igor in another language than Norse.
Byrnison implies Russia - men were named for their father a lot of the time; for instance, "Ivanovich" is "Son of Ivan". Therefore, I can only assume Iorek is son of Byrne.
However, Byrne is an Irish name, stemming from "O'Brion", and means "Raven" in Gallic.
This would be consistent with Iorek, and it's possible that Iorek is Igor in another language than Norse.
Byrnison implies Russia - men were named for their father a lot of the time; for instance, "Ivanovich" is "Son of Ivan". Therefore, I can only assume Iorek is son of Byrne.
However, Byrne is an Irish name, stemming from "O'Brion", and means "Raven" in Gallic.
WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN SINGERS. DANCERS AND MUSICIANS, ONE AND ALL, LISTENING TO THE CROONING THAT SWEELS FROM DEEP WITHIN AND SUCCUMBING TO THE SYMPHONY OF-
OF WHAT?
OF COURSE. OF LIFE.
OF WHAT?
OF COURSE. OF LIFE.
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ArcT - Opinions Administrator
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by anna11 » Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:57 pm
Boys are always named 'vitch' after thier father. Eg, Alexei Nikolavitch, son of Nicholas. Bryinison doesn't fit that.
Take us the foxes
The Little Foxes
That spoil the vines
For our vines have tender grapes
The Little Foxes
That spoil the vines
For our vines have tender grapes
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by ArcT » Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:01 pm
Tchaa 
WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN SINGERS. DANCERS AND MUSICIANS, ONE AND ALL, LISTENING TO THE CROONING THAT SWEELS FROM DEEP WITHIN AND SUCCUMBING TO THE SYMPHONY OF-
OF WHAT?
OF COURSE. OF LIFE.
OF WHAT?
OF COURSE. OF LIFE.
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ArcT - Opinions Administrator
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by Mahogany » Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:29 pm
It's a Scandinavian patronym. In Russia you have "(v)ich", in Germany "fitz", in scandinavia you get "son" or sen". Hence Iorek Byrnison and Iofur Raknison
"There is no such thing as a moral or immoral book. Books are either well written or badly written. That is all."
Oscar Wilde
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by ArcT » Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:40 pm
So I'm on the right track with it being similar to Russian?
WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN SINGERS. DANCERS AND MUSICIANS, ONE AND ALL, LISTENING TO THE CROONING THAT SWEELS FROM DEEP WITHIN AND SUCCUMBING TO THE SYMPHONY OF-
OF WHAT?
OF COURSE. OF LIFE.
OF WHAT?
OF COURSE. OF LIFE.
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ArcT - Opinions Administrator
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by Mahogany » Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:07 pm
Exactly. It's the same idea, just different language.
"There is no such thing as a moral or immoral book. Books are either well written or badly written. That is all."
Oscar Wilde
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by ArcT » Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:09 pm
Awesomeness.
I'm not certain about Iorek being the "Son of Bryne"- the Byrnison is Scandanavian, but the Byrne is Irish...
I'm not certain about Iorek being the "Son of Bryne"- the Byrnison is Scandanavian, but the Byrne is Irish...
WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN SINGERS. DANCERS AND MUSICIANS, ONE AND ALL, LISTENING TO THE CROONING THAT SWEELS FROM DEEP WITHIN AND SUCCUMBING TO THE SYMPHONY OF-
OF WHAT?
OF COURSE. OF LIFE.
OF WHAT?
OF COURSE. OF LIFE.
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ArcT - Opinions Administrator
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by Mahogany » Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:31 pm
Well it might be, but I thought it was a corruption of "bjorn" meaning "bear" so "bjornison" "son of a bear"
"There is no such thing as a moral or immoral book. Books are either well written or badly written. That is all."
Oscar Wilde
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by ArcT » Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:37 pm
Aaah, now that makes sense!
Hmm, this interests me. PP has been doing more homework than I thought previously
Even furtherly interesting, a parry is a way of defending yourself while you're in a swordfight. Seems Will's been doing a lot of defending of both himself and his mother. Not to metion Lyra. Or their dæmons. Or Dust.
Ahem. Just thought that'd be a nugget of information people'd appreciate
Hmm, this interests me. PP has been doing more homework than I thought previously
Even furtherly interesting, a parry is a way of defending yourself while you're in a swordfight. Seems Will's been doing a lot of defending of both himself and his mother. Not to metion Lyra. Or their dæmons. Or Dust.
Ahem. Just thought that'd be a nugget of information people'd appreciate
WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN SINGERS. DANCERS AND MUSICIANS, ONE AND ALL, LISTENING TO THE CROONING THAT SWEELS FROM DEEP WITHIN AND SUCCUMBING TO THE SYMPHONY OF-
OF WHAT?
OF COURSE. OF LIFE.
OF WHAT?
OF COURSE. OF LIFE.
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ArcT - Opinions Administrator
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by Mahogany » Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:10 pm
Indeed the connection is much appreciated. I had overlooked it. And when you consider that William comes from the German "Wilhelm" meaning "desires protection" you have the idea of "parry" and the idea of the subtle knife being an object that would protect the bearer.
"There is no such thing as a moral or immoral book. Books are either well written or badly written. That is all."
Oscar Wilde
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by ArcT » Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:11 pm
Eeeeexactly. You into linguistics, then?
WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN SINGERS. DANCERS AND MUSICIANS, ONE AND ALL, LISTENING TO THE CROONING THAT SWEELS FROM DEEP WITHIN AND SUCCUMBING TO THE SYMPHONY OF-
OF WHAT?
OF COURSE. OF LIFE.
OF WHAT?
OF COURSE. OF LIFE.
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ArcT - Opinions Administrator
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- Dæmon Species: Tawny Owl
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by Mahogany » Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:55 pm
I go crazy for things like that. I find delight in the little details. That's why i look for clues in names and images, and why I plough through Paradise Lost finding links to HDM. A book that is rich in details will keep me happy for a very long time indeed.
"There is no such thing as a moral or immoral book. Books are either well written or badly written. That is all."
Oscar Wilde
Oscar Wilde
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by ArcT » Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:56 pm
You are truly a book...not-worm-because-you-don't-eat-books-and-you're-not-exactly-worm-shaped after my own heart 
WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN SINGERS. DANCERS AND MUSICIANS, ONE AND ALL, LISTENING TO THE CROONING THAT SWEELS FROM DEEP WITHIN AND SUCCUMBING TO THE SYMPHONY OF-
OF WHAT?
OF COURSE. OF LIFE.
OF WHAT?
OF COURSE. OF LIFE.
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ArcT - Opinions Administrator
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- Dæmon Species: Tawny Owl
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by Betty da Cello » Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:40 am
i love to know the details, really tiny tiny ones, in the book.
Usually the characters' names are a great study.
Does anyone know any more?
about Will, i think it can simply means will, too. because Will does have a strong will of his own, doesn't he?
Usually the characters' names are a great study.
Does anyone know any more?
about Will, i think it can simply means will, too. because Will does have a strong will of his own, doesn't he?
B. C.
My Daemon:
Name: Loupaigle
Form: Unsettled
But he likes to be a wolf or a falcon in daytime and a eagle owl at night. A baby seal when we sleep. In water, he is always an orca.
My Daemon:
Name: Loupaigle
Form: Unsettled
But he likes to be a wolf or a falcon in daytime and a eagle owl at night. A baby seal when we sleep. In water, he is always an orca.
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by ArcT » Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:05 am
Ahhh, that's a point - the most obvious is the most cunningly hidden!
Good going!
Good going!
WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN SINGERS. DANCERS AND MUSICIANS, ONE AND ALL, LISTENING TO THE CROONING THAT SWEELS FROM DEEP WITHIN AND SUCCUMBING TO THE SYMPHONY OF-
OF WHAT?
OF COURSE. OF LIFE.
OF WHAT?
OF COURSE. OF LIFE.
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ArcT - Opinions Administrator
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- Dæmon Species: Tawny Owl
- Dæmon Name: Tiao'ri
by Mahogany » Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:35 pm
yes it appears i can't see the woods for the trees.
I read something about thorold... Lord Asriel's servant. Contains something about a struggle with god
I read something about thorold... Lord Asriel's servant. Contains something about a struggle with god
"There is no such thing as a moral or immoral book. Books are either well written or badly written. That is all."
Oscar Wilde
Oscar Wilde
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