Lord Asriel and Marisa Coulter

[Lady Marisa]

After reading the books for fifth time, I finally got a full picture and opinion on these two characters and their relationship.

And I would appreciate thoughts and opinions


Heres the questions and what I think:

1) What was their relationship like?

In my opinion I think they found each other irrestiable, a very firey relationship and I believe they found no one as good as one another when it came to charm, sex, love, happiness, friendship, intelligence or as good looking, though I believe while they were separated they tried to fill each other's places, however they never succeeded for they where truly in love with one another.

2) Other lovers?

Asriel states in NL that he does not care that he knew and cared not that Marisa had lovers, I believe he was lying and cared very much. I bet Asriel did not even like the fact that she went home too Edward and I believe he would do anything for Marisa.
I also think that if Marisa found out and lived at the TAS would hunt hunt Ruta down and kill her due to the fact how passionate she was with Asriel.

3) Lust or love?

Both like I said above I believe they found one another irresitable even after they broke up, the flame of their desire never died out and probably never would but I believe their love was true love and they would of sorted out their diiferences if they had lived.

4) Ruta jealous of Marisa?

Yeah duh! I bet most women either wanted to be her or be with her. I also think Ruta knew Asriel loved Marisa and not her, she even states she wished she had carried Asriel's child. But I think Ruta also knew that she was just a booty call lol.

5) Asriel, Marisa and Lyra?

This father, mother and daughter relationship was a very difficult one and I believe especially for Marisa because I think when Asriel saw that Marisa cared for someone else (I do not think she cared for anyone else other than him and herself) this troubled Asriel and made him jealous and resent Lyra, for I belive he was the sort of man that wanted Marisa all too himself because even though being adored and loved by others he never felt the same way until he met Marisa.

6) Growing up

Though I know they had a very different upbringing I believe both of them missed out on love.

Asriel being the high class in society would of been brought up how too behave and how to act in society and how that he should always get his own way. He would of gone to boarding school, been brought up by servants and probably if ever rarely seen his parents. This is another reason why I think Asriel finds it hard to be the father Lyra wants him too be.

Asriel when he was young I think he saw how wrong things where and was fed uo with the rules and restrictions and wanted too take the church on from a very early life and was building his alliances too do such a thing.


Marisa on the other hand I do not even think she was brought by anyone I think she was an oraphan and with thir world being run as it was saw the only way for a better life was to be rich and set her sights at marrying a high classed, powerful man. And she had all these advantages because she was very beautiful, very charming and very clever and John Faa even says she was a scholar.

I think she worked for all this at an early life but forgot one deadly thing that shecould fall in love 9because she thought this was beneath her) howver we all know it falls apart when she meets Asriel.

7) Their relationship all in all.

I believe they where both extremly shocked too find themselves in love especially Marisa. Asriel being older and hell of a lot more mature was obvisouly for one in charge and the more mature person in this relationship.
But I think Marisa felt safe with Asriel which I do not think she did with anyone else adn put up a guard with anyone else but did not have too with Asriel.
I think they truly loved one another and trusted one another. The reason for their break up in my opinion is because she got scared that she was in love and the fact that Lyra was born and took the immature way out but deeply regretted this later but would not tell Asriel this because being so stubborn. Thus making Asriel angrier at her.

[Into-Dust]

1) What was their relationship like?

I think it was a very lusty relationship, at least at first. It was very passionate.


2) Other lovers?

They both obviously had a number of other lovers apart from each other. Marisa had lovers for like, social climbing reasons and Asriel because he’s a big hunk of man and needs lovers I don't think Asriel really cared about her other lovers, and I don't think he would have been jealous of Edward during their affair. He would have had other woman on the side, apart from Marisa. But I think he def. saw something special in her, and regarded her a par above all the other ones. Same with Marisa.

3) Lust or love?

Love defiantly, in the end. It was a strange kind. But I think it was really deep. I think that they were each the only people in the end, that they truly cared about (apart from Lyra).

4) Ruta jealous of Marisa?

Yeah I think she was, she was jealous that a lover had bore Asriel a child and the child was incredibly important and all that, and it wasn't her, and it was an enemy of the witches. I think she also knows, deep down that Asriel cares about Marisa more than her.

5) Asriel, Marisa and Lyra?

They both loved her, but I it was a very selfish love, especially on Marisa’s part. I think Marisa loves the idea of having a daughter, and caring for her but she could never really love Lyra as Lyra, the way she was. We see this when she drugs her in the cave. In the end of course Marisa demonstrates a great act of love, but that is only after waking up to herself. Asriel is the opposite. He loved her for being Lyra, not because she was his daughter. He hates the idea of having a daughter, but he cannot help loving Lyra because of all she's done.

6) Growing up

It says in Northern Lights that Marisa is not well born. I think she came from a low class family, that never had much and she dragged herself up from dirt. It became an obsession to get as high as possible, and doing that is how she got so cold hearted. I think the idea of being normal terrifies Marisa. I think Asriel was high born, but the sort of child that isn’t paid any attention by parents, because they’re too important doing important things. I think they both basically raised themselves as small children.



7) Their relationship all in all.

Yeah I agree that they were both shocked to find themselves in love, and I think it took them a while to actually realise that they were in love. They never could have been an actual couple because they were both to self centered, and involved in themselves. They would never have had the patience to be happy together.

[Mrs_Heather_Asriel]

1) What was their relationship like?
Very stong. I believe they must have been madly in love. My views are:
Every one says that all Marisa wanst's was power. What good is sleeping with a Lord to get power when you are married? You would have to divorce Edward (or something even more drastic).
There was deffinatly more power in Asriels side of the relationship than Marisa's. But I think she charmed him in a way he found unresistable, Therefore wanting to take her as a lover would have been easy as I believe she never felt much towards her husband.
2) Other lovers?
We all know that Marisa had at least one other lover and that was Lord Boreal, But she probably had more. Look at the way she acts and her charms and beauty if she had of wanted anything she would have got it!
Asriel (As far as we know) only had one lover; Ruta. Who was clearly in love with him but very jelous of Marisa. When Asriel said he didn't care about her lovers I am sure he would have been lieing.

3) Lust or love?
It would seem, at first a lot more like lust than love. But as yo read the TSK and TAS you realise that there is more there. They had a strong rlationship which could only have been love, Besides she does say they should have been married and raised Lyra them selves. But I don't think Asriel would have been a very good father. Do you?

4) Ruta jealous of Marisa?

Of cause she was! She wanted from Asriel what he had given Marisa and not give anyone elese. She wanted Asreil's love but she could not get it because (Deny as he may) Asriel only had eyes for Marisa.

5) Asriel, Marisa and Lyra?
Right well. I don't think it would have worked out very well if they had of been left together, But Lyra should have nown who her parents were. In NL John Faa says that Marisa wanted nothing to do with Lyra and so she turned away. I always have believed that Marisa loved her child but was seen as an un-fit mother and her child was put in to Asriels care, he did not want Lyra and so he gave her to The Master at Jordan. After of cause she was with Ma Costa.
It is clear though that Marisa did love Lyra and wanted to care for her but she had a strange way of showing it. She didn't know how to take care of a child.

6) Growing up
Seeing as Asriel is a Lord it is porbably safe to asume that he was well born in to a very rich family. I don't think his parents would have had much time to se that he was happy so he was probably looked after by maids.
He would have had every thing he wanted but he never probably never had the love from his mother and father.

As for Marisa, well we know she was not well of, Maybe the idea, as stupid as it may seem. is that she was born in to a very poor family, but was gorgeus one day when she was in her early 20's late teens her father sent her of the be married to Edward. It's aparnet there is no love between them.

7) Their relationship all in all.

It's safe to say that the love between Marisa and Asriel is more than a little love afair and I don't belive that all Marisa wanted was power, There was love there, Maybe not a first but it was there it grew over time. And thats what love should be. Though after the tough child hood Marisa probably had it would have been a shock to find someone that truly loved her and she loved in retun.

[MarisaxAsriel123]

Mind you, I'm only halfway through the third book, but I read ahead to all the Marisa/Asriel parts...oops

1) What was their relationship like?

I think that they had some kind of twisted love/hate relationship. They drove each other crazy, because they knew exactly what the other one hated. They was also some grudging admiration. They loved each other immensely, but were too proud and too stubborn to tell each other that. They fought back and forth, and rarely agreed on anything, but they would die for each other, which I think is really sweet.

2) Other lovers?

Asriel said in Northern Lights that he didn't care about her other lovers, but he most definitely did. He was too infatuated with her not to care. I think even before Lyra was born, he was jealous of Edward Coulter, and maybe hoped after he killed him that they could be together, but she wanted nothing to do with him, which I think was a hard blow to his heart. As for her opinion of Ruta Skadi, his main lover, I think she was jealous of her as well. Even though they were separate, they never quite got over each other, searching out different lovers to try to fill the void that the other had left.

3) Lust or love?

At first, it was lust. They found each other immensely interesting and the affair was just an attractive idea in general. They were entranced by each other, and found no one else that could understand them more completely. I think they were both surprised on how much they grew attached to each other, and were certainly surprised to find themselves falling in love. As time went on, as I said before, they could never quite get over the other, even though the opportunity to be with other people presented itself. At the end, with them falling into the abyss together, I think it was true love that will last for eternity.

4) Ruta jealous of Marisa?

Um, duh. She knew Asriel cared about her, but she, in the back of her mind, knew all along that Marisa was the only one he would ever truly love. He would love and care for others, but only Marisa would evoke the, 'heart overfilling, butterflies, passionate, I'd-die-for-you' kind of love.

5) Asriel, Marisa and Lyra?

I think the fact that Marisa found herself pregnant was overwhelming for both of them. The affair was sort of a fantasy world, and now everything came crashing down, and they had to face the consequences. Surely Asriel wanted to stay close to Marisa after Lyra was born, and maybe be a family together. Marisa, on the other hand, was too shocked by what had happened, and perhaps too afraid for her feelings for Asriel, cut herself off from the two of them, hurting Asriel greatly. In the end, however, Lyra was able to unite them once again.


6) Growing up

Asriel, being a lord, probably grew up in a wealthy family, who had little or no time for him. He was taught to follow orders his whole life, by servants, his parents, and the Church, making him rebellious in his adulthood. He went against what was 'right', and formed his own opinions, and challenged authority. He enjoyed bending, and breaking, the rules, which possibly made an affair with Marisa Coulter appealing.

As for Marisa, it is mentioned that she was not born to a as well off family as Asriel. She most likely had absentee parents, and even though she was very smart, getting into good schools would only go so far. Therefore, she had to use her looks and charm to climb up the social ladder and gain the power that she wanted, probably because she wasn't born with any. Meeting Asriel, and finding herself extremely attracted to him threw a wrinkle into the plan.

I think because of both of their rather unique upbringings, with a lack of strong parents, they felt they would never be good parents to Lyra.

7) Their relationship all in all.

I think Marisa and Asriel are very much alike, which made for a passionate, fiery relationship. They were able to get each other so upset, to the others amusement, until the passion and underlying sexual tension just erupted. They're the kind of people who would be screaming at each other one minute, then making out the next. They were both surprised that they fell in love so easily, and even when they were apart, they were always thinking of each other, and in the end, they were together forever, something both of them I feel wanted.

[JohnT]

I think because of both of their rather unique upbringings, with a lack of strong parents, they felt they would never be good parents to Lyra.

Yup, that's a nice way of putting it. They were both incredibly sorry excuses as parents. It's hard too tell who is the sorrier of them... at least soul-chopping Mrs. Coulter didn't pretend to care about Lyra. In Lyra's own mind, Asriel only ever treated her "like some adult indulging a child in some petty trick".

Another great daughter-father dialog: "You're my father, en't you?" "Yes. So what?"

But for on the plus side for him, at least Asriel saw Lyra occasionally and "paid child support".
But then again, Asriel might very well have put Lyra under the intercision blade- after all, he was horrified when she arrived. But she did him the convenience of dragging her best friend along so that he could chop his being in half instead. What a wonderful dad, to spare your life and kill your best friend instead!!! Mrs. Coulter, on the other hand, saved Lyra from the same fate.

Poor Lyra.

So yea... who takes the cake as the worse of the two? Mrs. Coulter or Lord Asriel?

Guess you're right... they knew they were horrible parents and stayed away.

[MarisaxAsriel123]

That has to be some of my favorite dialog, too. (I would quote it, but for some reason, it's not working?)

I can sort of relate to Lyra in a way, and I think that's what makes her a wonderful character. My mom loves me very much, and we get a long very well, but she works 24/7, and I don't see her that often. As for my dad, he works part time, but we argue like crazy and don't get a long well at all.

If you asked me when I first finished The Subtle Knife, I would've said Mrs. Coulter was worse than Lord Asriel. She sort of saw Lyra just as a pretty doll that she could dress up, and show off to others. And, there was the whole talk of killing her before she could be tempted and all. But after reading parts of the Amber Spyglass, I'm going to to have to say Lord Asriel was worse than Marisa was.

Even though she drugged her and kept her in a cave, Mrs. Coulter really looked out for Lyra, and tried to be a good mother. You could see that she loved her daughter very, very much. Lord Asriel had that whole conversation about how Lyra was just ordinary, not intellectual, and insolent, and Mrs. Coulter stood up for her daughter. I think his sort of resentment towards his daughter because she was something that could have brought him and Marisa together, but didn't.

In the end, though, I thought they ended up being wonderful parents, sacrificing themselves to make sure that Lyra could grow up.

[JohnT]

In the end, though, I thought they ended up being wonderful parents, sacrificing themselves to make sure that Lyra could grow up.

Well, first of all, I really doubt Lord Asriel truly died to save Lyra. He cared a little bit for Lyra, true, and his respect, caring, and admiration for his daughter finally did increase towards the end there, but in taking down Metatron he was dealing a huge blow to the Kingdom of Heaven. That's probably the primary reason he did what he did. Lord Asriel had a history of stifling his emotions and acting on what was for the greater good. I know he said to Mrs. Coulter something like "Yes, if we take him down with us, Lyra will be safe". He's talking to Mrs. Coulter, remember.

Mrs. Coulter, on the other hand, she undoubtedly did die to save Lyra. She didn't give a damn about anything else.

But characterizing them as wonderful parents due to this... is a little extreme. Wonderful parents would have been there for Lyra her whole life. So Mrs. Coulter loved Lyra. So what? Hitler loved Eva Braun (maybe). Say Hitler had had a daughter?

[MarisaxAsriel123]

I said they were wonderful parents, not ideal or phenomenal. They loved their daughter, and yes, maybe they died for other things, too, but they were concerned for her safety. I think jumping off a cliff into an abyss should be a no brain-er to save your child. If I ever have a kid, I would most certainly do all I could to save them.

[tearsintheearth]

'If I ever have a kid, I would most certainly do all I could to save them.'
Since a lot of people would agree with this statement does that make them all wonderful parents? It may of been a wonderful act but lets face it, Lord Asriel and Mrs Coulter were pretty terrible parents, they neglected their child exposed her to incredible danger through carelessness and stupidity, granted they did sacrifice themselves for Lyra (although Arsiel did it for the republic of Heaven and the greater good further emphasising my point) this doesn't make them wonderful parents as in my view if you truly love your child, this should be a 'no-brainer' as you said, as long as you are brave enough.

[JohnT]

Well, it's no so much if you love your child, it's if you love your child above everything else. And she did. I wish though, just once, that Lyra had called Mrs. Coulter "mother" to her face. It would have been a powerful scene, and Mrs. Coulter did deserve that much, at least. Even bad people should be rewarded when they do good. As it was though, the scene in the Himalayas when Lyra was leaving her was pretty powerful in itself.

[MarisaxAsriel123]

I agree with John T. The scene in the Himalayas was heartbreaking in my opinion, and I really wanted a family moment in the book, with Lord Asriel. I know it would be unrealistic, but it would've been nice.

[coulterfan692]

That scene really was heartbreaking! I seriously almost cried, that might've been because I was just having a really weird emotional day but still Anyways I know they obviously messed up with Lyra but they both regretted it and wished they could go back. Well mainly Mrs Coulter but even though he didn't show it I think Lord Asriel felt that way too. Mrs Coulter tried so many times to get Lyra so they could be a family but Lyra just kept running away every time so she did try it's not like she didn't care.

Quick question: Did Mrs. Coulter know that Lyra knew that she was her mother? because obviously Mrs. Coulter doesn't tell her but does she know that someone else told her?

[MarisaxAsriel123]

Yeah, I think Mrs. Coulter knew that Lyra knew that she was her mother.
The scene almost made me cry, too! I like how we're having this massive discussion about parenting and junk when the forum is about Marisa and Asriel, haha.

I think Lord Asriel did love Lyra, but he didn't express it as openly as Mrs. Coulter. He put her in the care of people he knew could raise her better than he could. He didn't want to use her when he opened up the new world. He tried to find her in TAS.

[JohnT]

"I think Lord Asriel did love Lyra, but he didn't express it as openly as Mrs. Coulter. He put her in the care of people he knew could raise her better than he could. He didn't want to use her when he opened up the new world. He tried to find her in TAS."

It's too hard to tell exactly how much he cared for her, but I don't think it's love. I don't know of Lord Asriel is truly capable of love. Lyra says it best to him: "You en't human, Lord Asriel". Not literally true (probably), but emotionally true, yes. He seems to be such the embodiment of utilitarian "for the greater good" thinking that he is capable of completely ignoring any love he might have for Lyra- human beings do not operate emotionally in this manner. He truly would have intercised her if she were the only child to show up. That's not love. Love goes beyond rationality, and Lord Asriel is too rational to have true love.

While he undoubtedly did care for her, I think that no father who truly loved their daughter would have been able to even consider such a thing as amputating their child's soul.

As far as Mrs. Coulter knowing that Lyra knew her to be her mother- yes, I think she did. After all, Mrs. Coulter had to know or guessed that Lyra spent time with the Gyptians before coming to Bolvangar, and Mrs. Coulter had to know that the Gyptians had nursed Lyra when she was young and knew her true parentage. And we still don't know what happened between them when Lyra was captured by Mrs. Coulter at the end of the Subtle Knife.

But if Mrs. Coulter didn't know that Lyra knew, Mrs. Coulter directly calls Lyra "my daughter" to Lyra's face in chapter 13 of TAS and Lyra responds by crying.

[MarisaxAsriel123]

So, maybe Asriel didn't love Lyra, but he still cared about her, which is better than nothing, I suppose. One of my favorite things in the book series is the whole time, Mrs. Coulter is referred to as 'Marisa' or 'Mrs. Coulter' in the narration, but finally, when she jumps into the abyss with Stelmaria, she is referred to as 'Lyra's mother'. That just makes me so emotional.

[tearsintheearth]

I think he does that quite well, expressing MC as two different characters, one as Lyra's mother/Marisa and one as the infamous Mrs Coulter, who is too be feared. It isn't until he names her that you realise fully the change that has come over her and fully empathise with her.