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Could we forgive Marisa Coulter?

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Do we forgiven Marisa Coulter?

yes, Yeah when she leapt with all her heart, she absolved herself of all her crimes!
34
89%
no, she was evil through and through, regardless of her final act.
4
11%
 
Total votes : 38

Could we forgive Marisa Coulter?

Postby Donny » Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:10 pm

:lol: Do you really think did Marisa Coulter redeem herself? Mrs Coulter did so much horrible thing.
She also did one good thing. I couldn’t forgiven her as Mrs. Coulter the devoted servant of the Church who killed and tortured but it is strange I didn’t see her like that in the TAS
She was Lyra's mother for me and no this horrible person in NL and TNK.
That why I think she deserves to be forgiven by us that why I could forgive her because of her last and only good action (I really think it was her only)
Well me hat why! Pullman's choice to phrase it as "she jumped with all her heart" is very significant, as it shows that all her being was focused away from malicious greed and on to her love for Lyra, so she was in essence 'redeemed’. She realizes her love for Lyra in the end. Isn't that enough for her to be forgiven? I VOTE YES
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Postby will and lyra » Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:30 pm

Of course we can forgive Mrs Coulter! I vote Yes too:D She has done terrible thing, and was evil.. But when she says she loves Lyra and jump into the abyss with Lord Asriel, then I had forgive her with all my heart..
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Postby seyla » Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:42 pm

Yes, she jumped as Lyra's mother, not Mrs. Coulter.
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Postby gathered_stones » Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:33 pm

/\ True, so true!
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Postby horst » Fri Nov 02, 2007 7:19 pm

Good question.

I vote for yes because she knew she did wrong in the end.
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Postby apple_pie155 » Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:24 pm

At last she fitted to be forgiven as she gives her life for her child, whatever she did it doesn't matter at that point.
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Postby Dark Fantasies » Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:08 pm

Indeed, after all bad things she has done, after the bomb and jumping with all her heart, she can be forgiven.
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Postby jfrcoates » Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:50 pm

Indeed she can. She saw the errors of her ways, hated herself for it, and then well and trully redeemed herself.
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Postby Adamoun » Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:27 pm

We can forgive her, sure! When she lept, I could do anything but be sad. Then she really was Lyra's mother.
Somehow I also started to forgive her when she tried to keep Lyra safe even is this meant that she had to drug her...
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Postby Into-Dust » Sat Nov 03, 2007 6:35 pm

hmmm, maybe not forgiven, but redeemed certainly.
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Postby AryaAurora » Sat Nov 03, 2007 8:43 pm

Agreed, Anna11. Coulter's just too good even when she's evil. I can't help but love her. I think she deserves a break.
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Postby rosedrop » Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:21 pm

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Postby willaa » Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:57 pm

i can. I forgave half way through the first book so no hesatation there! :lol:
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Postby Kaiten-Okochumi » Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:56 pm

I think she deserves to be forgiven after all it was a major sacrifice she made. What would have happened had she not?
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Postby AryaAurora » Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:14 pm

I'm not quite sure I can completely forgive Asriel on the other hand. When he killed Roger he lost a lot of my respect. But it is Lord Asriel after all...so I say he's forgiven too.

Just throwing that out there.
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Postby Donny » Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:08 am

well i am not alone to forgive her
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Re: Could we forgive Marisa Coulter?

Postby MarisaxAsriel123 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:21 pm

I think we could definitely forgive her. Even though she was selfish throughout the books, for the most part, in the end what she did was entirely selfless.
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Re: Could we forgive Marisa Coulter?

Postby JohnT » Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:55 am

One thing I like about HDM as opposed to some other fiction is that, believe it or not, it just seems more "realistic". The characters are not black and white. Good people die. Even the villains have redeeming qualities.

Anyone else find heroes in other books sometimes too pukingly-perfect? Just take Harry Potter. Jesus incarnate. He never clearly kills anyone deliberately. Sorry guys and girls. That's not how real life works. The good guys have to kill people.

So it's great we can have debates like this. Did the super evil villain woman redeem herself? I'd say no... she's still Mrs. Coulter. Whatever maternal instincts she had somehow overcame her love of inflicting pain and death. She just had a redeeming quality, a single redeeming quality, but that doesn't redeem her for being "the pitiless agent of the Church, the fanatical persecutor of children, the inventor of hideous machines to slice them apart and look in their terrified little beings for any evidence of sin".

Nope. Still evil.
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Re: Could we forgive Marisa Coulter?

Postby Neptune » Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:54 am

I think predominantly Harry Potter was written for imagination and fantasy - Harry Potter has its own depth, however it is clearly showed that it is just as much as about love compared to heroism. It's a sort of escapism to a lot of young readers, and the demographic fits. It just gives another set of values imprinted to children, instead of opening book about how cruel real life can be.

It comes down to whether you want to lose your innocence earlier or later.

I think remorse is one of the most redeeming quality one could have - some people are cold-hearted enough to let the people drink in their sin for the rest of their lives, but since Mrs. Coulter would either 1) die without water, 2) die without air, 3) die out of the boredom of falling, I think I don't have much hate left. She is same as dead anyway. Does it make her less evil? Probably yes, probably not. I am not to judge, but I am to forgive. Can I forgive Hitler if he had come out and apologise and accept his punishment? I probably can - you can't really die and give back other lifes you've sacrificed. People always forgive.. Then eventually forget.

As for Asriel - he's killing Roger for the better good. He can't see another way of doing it - or at least he didn't know other ways. He rather get blamed for it than not try doing it at all. Which is similar to a lot of Scientists now - on experiments etc.
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Re: Could we forgive Marisa Coulter?

Postby MarisaxAsriel123 » Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:42 pm

I'm going to have to agree with JohnT about Harry Potter, actually. I have read the Harry Potter series, and while all characters posses good traits, they don't have faults, like the characters do in HDM. Those faults make the characters seem much more real, and relatable.
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Re: Could we forgive Marisa Coulter?

Postby coulterfan692 » Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:23 pm

Yes I say we could forgive her. Yes she did do some terrible things and she never had remorse for torturing or killing but she completely gave up that side of her in TAS. I mean she was still sneaky and clever and a good liar but she used those attributes to help save Lyra the entire book. Even in the first two books, I never really felt the fear and hate that Lyra did because I knew the MC never wanted to hurt her she was trying to help. Anyways that jump at the end definitely redeems anything she had done. If she didn't love Lyra and Lord Asriel she wouldn't have jumped. She could have just walked away and watched LA die- but she didn't. She's accepting about the worse way to die possibly theres no way I can hate someone for that.
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Re: Could we forgive Marisa Coulter?

Postby latency » Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:39 pm

Even if you change, you can't the back what you have done.

Marisa didn't change, but she became aware of what she was. At the end, her mantra is basically; 'I am a villain. I will do this final deed in an attempt to make good on my sins, but my nature is still villainous.'

This is seen by the way she tricks Metatron to the edge of the abyss. Even Metatron cannot see good in her, and thus doesn't suspect her of lying, for why would she want to help the rebels?

Asriel hasn't got the time of day for scruples. He saw Rogers sacrifice as necessary, and so didn't waste time on regret.
Really, he should be sorry that the sacrifice was needed, but because it's needed, he doesn't bother with that sorrow.

Harry Potter, well funnily enough Harry Potter himself is my most hated character. The others are all reasonably two-dimensional and easy to understand.
Harry is more 3D, but in a bad way. I personally found him insufferably annoying or childish, depending on which book it was. He's terrible at explaining things, he puts himself in terrible situations that he won't be able to explain later, and in the later books, it always angry, yet just doesn't realise it.
There's that one time he complains to someone about being angry all the time, but for the rest of it, he seems so hard done by, when really he brings most of it on himself.
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Re: Could we forgive Marisa Coulter?

Postby MarisaxAsriel123 » Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:27 pm

The trait I dislike in Harry is his ability to not ask for help when he obviously needs it. People like that annoy me, and are childish. He thinks he has to do everything himself because it is his 'destiny' or something. It's weird.
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Re: Could we forgive Marisa Coulter?

Postby ArG » Fri Aug 05, 2011 6:27 pm

I vote yes all the way! I think she just needed to think about what was really important in her life. Power or her child? When she jumped she showed that she had chose Lyra.
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Re: Could we forgive Marisa Coulter?

Postby faze » Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:40 pm

Harry potter isn't that well written: also fire is hot, water is wet. More at ten.
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