Did Will and Lyra have sex?

[Dustbin]

Kind of creepy when you put it that way.

When you've grown older (If you know what I mean.....................) you'll understand what Kai is saying in a whole new light. It's spot on in my opinion.

You're missing my point: They're twelve-year-olds.

[latency]

Ah... yea now you put it that way I see you point... At any rate, yes, your point is also why they didn't have sex, and Pullman simply gave us a lot of metaphors and euphemisms...

[Dustbin]

I kind of think the Dæmon is a funny metaphor...
e.g, Asriel's Dæmon, Stelmaria, is a snow leopard...snow leopards are large animals...

[Kai]

And what about that priest who got sent to kill them. His was a beetle!

[Dustbin]

And Balthamos grabbed it and dragged him away by it!

And Lord Asriel said that castration was a precedent for intercision...it appears that this parallel was intentional.

[Kai]

It explains why it hurts so much to be physically separated from your Dæmon.

[rachey_v]

No, I don't believe that Lyra and Will had sex. I think that sex would of only served to have the reader take their relationship less seriously. They would of attributed their feelings to blind hormonal lust instead of the true love bond that they had. I think it's important to the ending of the book that they didn't have sex. It wouldn't of been nearly as emotional if we had of assumed lust instead of love. This way we know that forever Will and Lyra will be remembered in each others hearts.

[Mils]

I agree with you rachey_v, their love was more abstract than physical.

[Dustbin]

They would probably have difficulty in having sex, even if they tried.

When they tried to kiss, they were "blindly pressing their faces toward each other".

If they tried to have sex, it would probably be "blindly pressing their bodies toward each other".

[HDMforever]

No way did Lyra and Will have sex. Aside from the fact that it wasn't described anywhere in the book, they barely knew what it was. Someone before mentioned this passage, too: "'And I made my way into his inner chambers, where he was preparing to sleep.' Ruta Skadi said. And all the witches knew what had happened next, and neither Lyra nor Will dreamed of it, so she went on..."

That pretty much proves that they don't know too much about sex. Besides, their love was deeper than just physical.

[willislyra]

i dont believe they did because they were sleeping with the melufeus outside on each others lap and pp only said they kissed when they fell in love while picknicking and on the bench in wills world.

[countcyber]

Just finished the trilogy and loved it of course. I went to this thread first because it was the burning question I had.

Two points swayed me to believe, quite strongly, that yes, indeed, they had sex.

First, what happened with Will and Lyra rocked the Universe and saved all Creation; I can't imagine that happening with just a first kiss. A kiss is good, but it's not THAT good. Would you come back to a botanic garden bench every year for the rest of your life just to remember puppy love? No. But you would to honor the memory of your first lover. The intensity of their reaction just would not be there if all they did was hold hands and smooch. The Universe reacted to the consummation of their love. I don't think having feelings inside was the key point. They both felt strongly about each other for most of TAS, Mary just fanned it into flame. But the flame had to build into a fire to warm the entire cosmos, and it doesn't fit the power of the moment , or Lyra's role as the the focus of the witch's prophesy, if all that was going to happen was a kiss. Even Mrs. Coulter makes a comment that her daughter was growing up and was traveling with a boy and her temptation was imminent. The Holy Church sent someone to KILL Lyra. The story line of a war in heaven with angels and men taking sides is just too big to get coy about the issue. Most parents aren't worried about a daughter's first kiss.

Besides, there was a LOT of sex in the trilogy. Just start with Lyra, the child of an adulterous relationship between illicit lovers. That's hardly a bashful beginning for a children's story. John Parry is killed when he refused the sexual advances of the witch Juta Kamainen. "Because I loved him and he scorned me!" Sounds a little passionate to me. She didn't kill him because he wouldn't hold her hand. Will even remarks in TAS that he was glad that he could report that his father had been faithful. So arguments that Will somehow couldn't have "done it" because he didn't know about it were disproved in the story itself. Will knew what sex was, and knew its rules. He was not an "innocent" as far as that goes. And Mrs. Coulter uses her beauty and sensuous sexual power throughout the book to throw men off and gain power over them. She even does it to Will in the cave when the subtle knife shattered the first time. There was a LOT of sex in this story, and a lot of murder and war and killing. So why are so many people getting all nervous about sex between two 12 year olds? Look at PP's description of who Lyra's parents were; are we surprised that Lyra would be the one to make the first move before moving in for the kill?


Passion is a major driver in this wonderful story. It is what gives the story power and credibility. Many of the characters in the trilogy don't do what they are supposed to do, and break the rules when it suits them. Why do we expect the two characters at the center of the story to behave differently? Sex does happen between 12 year olds, especially mature ones, who have fought for their lives, survived a journey through hell and narrowly escaped countless dangers. PP obviously wanted to avoid a kiddy porn accusation. But kids figure it out without instruction, thank you, and frequently that happens way before people around them think. It's silly to think they "were too young to know," but their "moment" was the central event in the entire story.

Second, and the most convincing actually, is the re-write from the British version to the American version. Mary's conversation with Lyra is the guilty giveaway. Why re-write that passage? Women frequently describe the sensation of orgasm as feeling like that first big drop on a roller coaster. PP deliberately uses the roller coaster imagery when he wrote the story the first time. But he then removes it from the subsequent prudish American printing, describing her feelings as being like discovering a house inside of her. That is as obvious as it can be. The original version was too visceral, sensual, physical and described a woman's sexual sensations too clearly. There was no need to take it out EXCEPT to water down the sexual heat of that scene to make it less obvious and vague enough to get by in a children's book being sold in a sexually repressed (relatively) country.

By the way; my Dæmon is a Eurasian Eagle owl. Her name is "Principia Mathematica" I call her "Princess" or just "Principia" for short.

[Rhiannon-Clare]

countcyber, you are AWESOME

[ArcT]

Excellent post, CS - you've managd to sway me back again!

[HDMforever]

You have a good point, but simplicity is a big part of the series as well as passion. Agreed, many points in the books focus on passion: for people, for things, for ideas, for love. But in the interviews I've read, Philip Pullman has said (if I remember correctly...) that the point of that "moment" is that it's so simple, but still acts as a turning point for the whole multiverse. I know kissing and holding hands isn't considered as intimate as sex...but isn't the emotion behind the action more important?

Great speech, though.

[MichaelR]

If they did, then they likely did again when they knew they only had a few days. Not once, too.

If they had sex quite a few times... then Lyra may well had ended up pregnant. Without them knowing it by the time of separation. A 13 year old girl can be pregnant and, with decent medical support, bear a child.

Now THAT is a fanfic. (No, I ain't writing it. In "my" ending, they did not - although I read the Dæmon' words that they'd "tell later" of their exploits while away from their humans as a hint that the Dæmon might have done just that, both being cats).

[Rhiannon-Clare]

they weren't both cats!!! lyra's was a polecat, which is like a weasel or an ermine! that's some serious cross-species mating you are suggesting!
also, yeh, girls can bear children at 13, but Lyra doesn't appear well developed. I'll bet she hasn't started her period yet.

ANYWAY, my opinion is, is it really any of our business wether they had sex or not? PP deliberately doesn't put in any explicit detail or allusion to WHAT they did. I don't think it matters wether they did have sex. what matters is how they were changed. let's have some respect for privacy. haha.

[ArcT]

Actually, Lyra's was a Pine Marten

[Rhiannon-Clare]

same thing? ish?

and STILL not a cat, nevertheless!!

[Pantalaimon221]

There are many, many arguments that Lyra and Will had Sex.

These are mine:

1. In the HDM Trilogy there are so many allusions to sex that the one about their love is in no way extraordinary. Lyra is the “illegitimate” child of two passionate lovers, the jealousy of Asriel and the witch Ruta Skadi draw them to murder, Marisa Coulter seduced men till they died for her, Baruch and Balthamos loved each other like a homosexual couple and the reference at the circumcision of children – the elimination of good feelings – prove that the world Pullman created includes sexuality in the same way than ours.
2. In The Golden Compass/Northern Lights already, there are signs of a latent sexuality in Lyra: She is embarrassed by the nudity of Roger in the bathroom. Later – in The Amber Spyglass – this feeling recurs when she takes a bath in a river beyond Will’s sight. At last, the excitement she feels after Mary told her the story reminds at sexual excitation.
3. The intensity how Will kisses Lyra is not a peck between primary school children. It is as passionate as between young adult lovers.
4. The argument that 12-year-olds would be too young for sex is rather a moral statement than a biological one. It is a fact that some children start to masturbate at an age of 3 and that some make sexual experiences with kids of the same age before they got 10. Just look into the newspapers or listen to Ruta Skadi who claims that children have sexual feelings, too.
5. The opinion of some users that sexuality would spoil the innocent love between these adolescents makes sense only in a Christian context where sexuality spoils everything. The kind how they love each other is neither comparable with parental love nor with charity. It essentially includes an erotic aspect, and it cannot be innocent because it is one of the impulses to get the two out of their innocent existence. In this sense, the sexual act would be one expression for their achieved maturation. Accordingly, in these books maturity is a good thing while forcing children to stay innocent is a bad one.
6. To state that they had sex does not mean necessarily sexual intercourse. There are other forms of intimate activities according to their individual needs.
7. The mentioned analogy between intercision and circumcision leads to a connection between free will and sexuality. Both aspects develop rapidly by the beginning of puberty. The taboo to touch the Dæmon of someone else could mean that Dæmon represent a very intimate aspect of a person compared to a special body part. In this respect, there is an inseparable connection between the soul and the body, and this means if Lyra and Will in the end of their story have developed in mind, they have developed also sexually. And for the author it is necessary to express this somehow.
8. If Pullman did not want Lyra and Will to have sex he could have explained what happened after the kiss. Instead he used a stylistic device from old Hollywood movies where the direct presentation of sexuality was out of bounds – the fade after the kiss scene. Due to this he is able to protect himself and his opus from moralistic attacks and his books can be furthermore sold as children’s literature. He leaves a gap for the reader to fill it with his own imagination like the classic film directors before.
9. And finally, premarital sex is an affront to Christian morality. In this case it could be regarded as a kind of rebellion against the Church.

Why is it so important for me that they had sex? Because it is one of the greatest love stories ever and they deserve to have at least only this one chance in their whole life to express their love completely.

[Pedigree]

To end the discussion - I've got the proof:

http://rapidshare.com/files/196467417/O ... n.jpg.html

(NO, it's not pornographic!)

[Alihandreu]

They didn't have sex. I read somewhere in an interview with Pullman that he was annoyed because the Catholics had said that he promoted child sex or something like that. He was annoyed because he said (not in so many words) that if you read it correctly, it was obvious that they did not have sex. They really couldn't have had sex, given what Pullman writes, because they're sleeping under a tree (hardly a comfortable spot for sex, I'm sure). Besides, Pullman also makes it clear (at least to me) that their love is simple and pure, not tainted with lust. I think that it's very obvious that they didn't have sex.

[Pantalaimon221]

Why "tainted"? What's wrong with sex if you want to do it? What makes love so much better if sex isn't included?

[Rhiannon-Clare]

It's in no way obvious, at all.
And I don't think there IS a more simple or purer way of expressing love than having sex, to be honest. It's the most beautiful and wonderful thing in the world (when done right, obviously).

[christoph]

This entire discussion here is a very "western culture" driven discussion: By the age of 12 they are too young to have sex with each other. But why? None of our laws here will punish any 12 year olds when they are having sex with other 12 year olds.

PP did not mention it explicitly because he a) did not want to restrict our fantasy, while at the same time b) did still want to sell it as a book for kids and c) did want to avoid of being accused of promoting sex between children.

Telling explicitly that they had sex or had no sex would limit all options, while by not telling it everything is still open. As PP is human, just like most of us, he is most likely also equipped with that sexual drive, so guess what his intentions were when he left all options open.

Neither Lyra nor Will were at the end of TAS painted as children. Instead the picture PP gave was a picture of young adults. We could discuss whether that simple story of Mary is enough to turn children into young adults, but nobody will discuss whether young adults feel the desire to have sex.