Why this book was frustrating

[taylor3]

why didn't spectres get brother what's-his-name? the guy that was out to kill Lyra the entire time.

Why did all the dust slow down and change directions in the end, what is it all because lyra & will fell in love??

so am I supposed to believe they would really go into the underworld when the entire book of Subtle Knife is about how Will just wants to do as his father says. His father tells him to go help Lord Asriel at the end of Subtle Knife. Then at the beginning of Amber Spyglass Will promptly decides to go to the underworld.

So I'm supposed to believe that Lyra would go into the underworld just to apologize to Roger, even though she barely even thinks about Roger throughout the entire subtle knife book?

What exactly did the army of ghosts do to help Lord Asriel? DId they do anything??

Did anyone get annoyed that the character's actions seemed to based on prophecy and destiny, rather than their own free will? For example, as soon as amber spyglass ends, she can't use the alethiometer. What is the deal with that? So she's basically just someone else's pawn, and can't control this stuff herself??

Did anyone get annoyed that the protagonist switches in the subtle knife? It goes from awesome Lyra to lame Will. Lyra suddenly turns submissive for the rest of The Subtle Knife, Will becomes the main character. Then she isn't even in the first 70 pages of Amber Spyglass.

If anyone can please give me your opinions on these issues, that would be wonderful!

[Provideniya]

What exactly did the army of ghosts do to help Lord Asriel? DId they do anything??

Ok, I was going to give an answer from the plain memory but it would have gone wrong - luckily I found my copy of TAS and checked:

The Battle was raging and the Asriel's forces started to rout/retreat at the same time that Will opens the windows from the underword(?) to this realm of war. John Parrys' ghost identifies the reason for that: Spectres. Scoresby and Parry leads the ghost against the Spectres and presumeably that way they saved many of Asriels men from going insane.

A subtle, but effective warfare tactics.

A bit later, Scoresby and Parry helped Will and Lyra to escape with their Dæmon - which again could be counted also as helping the Asriels cause.

So all in all, everything they did was to distract the Spectres and so support the Asriel and Lyra in the only way they were still able to.

Hope this helped at least a little bit.

[latency]

why didn't spectres get brother what's-his-name? the guy that was out to kill Lyra the entire time.

The angels have power over the specters- when Mary receives her instructions through the 'Cave' computer, the angels tell her that the specters will not harm her.
Since there are rebel angles and royalist angels, Father Gomez was also protected.

Why did all the dust slow down and change directions in the end, what is it all because lyra & will fell in love??

Yes. The Dust is attracted to consciousness and expression, the biggest demonstration of this was a boy and girl falling in love.

so am I supposed to believe they would really go into the underworld when the entire book of Subtle Knife is about how Will just wants to do as his father says. His father tells him to go help Lord Asriel at the end of Subtle Knife. Then at the beginning of Amber Spyglass Will promptly decides to go to the underworld.

So I'm supposed to believe that Lyra would go into the underworld just to apologize to Roger, even though she barely even thinks about Roger throughout the entire subtle knife book?

Will and Lyra's decision to go to the world of the dead was somewhat irrational, but this is part of the irony of fate.
Lyra was destined to go to the world of the dead, but she was not to be aware of her actions. In order for this to happen, Will must be there, because he is the means, and Lyra must have a reason herself, however irrational it is.

But it also transpires that Lyra knew about the prophesy all along, but not the specifics of it. She thought that her betrayal of Roger was the prophesied betrayal- which fueled her wish to make amends.

What exactly did the army of ghosts do to help Lord Asriel? DId they do anything??

Prov's got that one in a nut shell.

Did anyone get annoyed that the character's actions seemed to based on prophecy and destiny, rather than their own free will? For example, as soon as amber spyglass ends, she can't use the alethiometer. What is the deal with that? So she's basically just someone else's pawn, and can't control this stuff herself??

Once again, this is the irony of destiny. Was it Lyra's choice to betray Pantalaimon and then fall in love with Will? She knew what she was doing.
Make of it what you will.

Did anyone get annoyed that the protagonist switches in the subtle knife? It goes from awesome Lyra to lame Will. Lyra suddenly turns submissive for the rest of The Subtle Knife, Will becomes the main character. Then she isn't even in the first 70 pages of Amber Spyglass.

Will can come across as being very unlikable in the books, because he represents Billy Everyteen- he's mediocre, he's us.
We read a fantasy book to get away from us, which is why Lyra is more likable, because she's fantastic and has a dæmon and comes from another world and has a completely different upbringing and so on...

That being said though, Will is an extremely willful person, which is where he breaks the mould. Lyra is also willful, but she's used to people backing down to her right away, where as Will doesn't, which is why she apparently turns submissive so easily. This is coupled by the fact that the alitheometer tells her to help Will, so she's slightly trapped to this extent.

As for the protagonist switch- you're allowed to have two protagonists. For the story to work, Pullman had to make Will just as important as Lyra, and since Lyra has an entire book to herself, Will had a lot of spotlight to make up for.
It would've been pretty lame for him to just roll into Lyra's life with no back story at all.
There will always be bits of a story you like less than others, but it's all got to go in there to give you enough information to relate to the important characters.

If anyone can please give me your opinions on these issues, that would be wonderful!

Ask and ye shall receive!
It's good to get some decent questions on the books again- been a while since I've had to reach for my copy of HDM to reference to while I make a post here

[taylor3]

thx guys!

Latency those were great answers.

Yes you are allowed to have two protagonists but I don't agree that Will had to represent mediocre Billy Everyteen. He doesn't have to be a warrior but he could have been more interesting. The only thing he seems to care about is helping his mom and doing what his father wants. His dad tells him to help Asriel and he looks for Lyra instead. Then he finds Lyra and decides to go to the underworld. So clearly he didn't care that much about what his father wants. Which means it is just about his mom.

Some examples of characters from our world that are interesting, but still flawed and certainly not the normal "hero/warrior" type would be, Harry Potter, Holden Caulfield, Dorothy etc.

Will was just a boring character and I don't think it was because of an agenda, or to get any message across, I think it's just a flaw in the book. Combine that with the fact that he not only replaces Lyra as the main character, but he makes Lyra seem almost as lame as him, and it is frustrating.

Also, the destiny thing just made it boring. I mean, you know these two are going to come out ok in the end. The witches have been saying it since book 1. Lyra can't even read the alethiometer anymore. It's like there is nothing admirable in these two characters, they just were lucky enough to get divine intervention (from who??) so they could fulfill the prophecy.

The books have obviously been successful though, so people clearly like them more than I did. But I just found them dull. They have a really deep message and give you a lot to think about, but as far as being exciting stories, not so much.

Golden Compass was awesome though! After reading that, I had high hopes for the trilogy, but it was a huge let down.

[Sayuri]

so am I supposed to believe they would really go into the underworld when the entire book of Subtle Knife is about how Will just wants to do as his father says. His father tells him to go help Lord Asriel at the end of Subtle Knife. Then at the beginning of Amber Spyglass Will promptly decides to go to the underworld.

Lyra doesn't trust her Father, there is no way she would have gone to him. Will does what Lyra does, if Lyra's not going, neither is he, regardless of what his father has said. Balthamos and Baruch wanted to take him straight to Lord Asriel, but he refused because he wanted to find Lyra. Plus it's fate.

So I'm supposed to believe that Lyra would go into the underworld just to apologize to Roger, even though she barely even thinks about Roger throughout the entire subtle knife book?

I don't think it's that he barely thinks about him......Think about it, if you had just seen someobody you sort of trust, especially when it's your father, kill one of your friends, wouldn't that be an extremely traumatic experience for you? You wouldn't want to talk about it.

What exactly did the army of ghosts do to help Lord Asriel? DId they do anything??

They fought off the Spectres, who were attacking Lord Asriel's army, as best and as long as they could.

[latency]

Yea, I know what you mean...

TGC was a great point-and-shoot adventure story... but TSK and TAS were very wrapped up in the message of the book.

The series is riddled with problems, but it's the message that matters- the method doesn't matter, it's the outcome we want.

I still enjoyed the books anyway, I wasn't so unhappy with the points you've made as you were, but then I don't mind one or two far cries to make things work.

Some characters just don't speak to you though... Harry Potter is a great example for me, I find him mind-numbingly irritating for most of the books.
Shocking as it is to say, I prefer Harry in the films than I do the books... he just doesn't speak my language if you see what I mean.

But certainly one of the problems that TAS most of all has, is that pretty much every single scene is a metaphor, which is why some scenes don't appear to make sense or flow properly when taken at face value.

This is very deep and all, but it does lead to the kind of frustrations you have, where sometimes you don't want to have to read between every line.

[taylor3]

Absolutely it is a very deep book, far deeper than say, harry potter, though I didn't realize nearly every scene is a metaphor.

And your example of Harry not "speaking your language" makes sense. Probably in the same way that Will didn't speak my language. I just couldn't root for a hero that is supposed to think only about his parents, but abruptly decides to follow a girl he just met. Ok, he rescued her from Mrs. Coulter, fine...that makes sense. But then he decides to go down to the underworld with her??

I though't the point of this kid's life to fulfill his dad's wishes and follow in his footsteps.

And the "it was fate" excuse is boring. What's the point of reading the book if the author can just tie everything together, even things that don't make much sense, because "it was fate." To me, it's like Pullman is saying we don't have any control over our lives.

"The series is riddled with problems, but it's the message that matters- the method doesn't matter"

I'm not even sure if Pullman would agree with this. I've heard him say he's in the Once Upon A Time business. In interviews he clearly states that he's interested in the story more than the message behind it.

This trilogy is very deep but there were two many problems, as you said. I can set that aside if I love the characters, but I just couldn't get into it. It's hard for me to root for the heroes when they are "destined to win".

[coulterfan692]

Yeah I have to agree I did get a little bit annoyed with the land of the dead part. I just wanted them to go to Lord Asriel's fortress like they were told to do and stop going on all these side adventures. I know like what was the point of finding Will's father?! It defeats the whole purpose of TSK! well not really but I don't know it just annoyed me a bit. Mabye it's just cause Lord Asriel was one of my favorite characters so I wanted them to go back haha.

Yes Will also annoyed me. When I reread it I didn't mind him as much in TSK but he gets really stuck up sort of in TAS. I don't know but he sort of makes all these stuck up sort of comments to Tialys and Salmakia the whole time and I'm like no. they're awesome. just listen to them! I think his power with the knife got to his head a bit

and I also love how none of them actually think to blame Lord Asriel for Roger's death in this book

[Multiverse]

Why did all the dust slow down and change directions in the end, what is it all because lyra & will fell in love??

Perhaps Dust attracts Dust, just as Matter attracts Matter. Consciousness is, if I´m not much mistaken, a form of Dust, and as Latency said, Love is a rather ultimate product of consciousness.

so am I supposed to believe they would really go into the underworld when the entire book of Subtle Knife is about how Will just wants to do as his father says. His father tells him to go help Lord Asriel at the end of Subtle Knife. Then at the beginning of Amber Spyglass Will promptly decides to go to the underworld.

During the entire story of TSK, Will, who haven´t got any properly stable characters to depend on during his life, meets and befriends Lyra, a person just as mature, strong-willed and good-natured a person as himself (if not a whole lot more good-natured, actually). It´s only natural that he´s torn between saving his friend and obeying his father´s wishes.
On top of that, there is the angels, who could´ve saved his father´s life, but chose not to. Naturally, Will wouldn´t want to help them by going to Lord Asriel. And most of all, maybe Will wasn´t fueled by the desire to do as his father said, but rather just the longing to be with him? If so, what could make more sense than going into the underworld to speak to him?

Did anyone get annoyed that the protagonist switches in the subtle knife? It goes from awesome Lyra to lame Will. Lyra suddenly turns submissive for the rest of The Subtle Knife, Will becomes the main character. Then she isn't even in the first 70 pages of Amber Spyglass.

At the beginning of TAS, we´ve known Lyra for two whole books, which should be more than enough to make us sympathize with Will, and to see Lyra as someone worth saving. In that way, the two first books have been preparing for those 70 pages she wasn´t there.

-Multiverse

[ArG]

Did anyone get annoyed that the protagonist switches in the subtle knife? It goes from awesome Lyra to lame Will. Lyra suddenly turns submissive for the rest of The Subtle Knife, Will becomes the main character. Then she isn't even in the first 70 pages of Amber Spyglass.

I got very annoyed with the switch to Will. It is the reason that TSK was might least favorite book in the series and why I had a hard time reading the parts about Will in TAS. Honestly I think the whole point of Will is to catch other boys attention.
In the beginning Lyra is strong and independent and all of a sudden everything depends on Will as if Lyra can't take care of herself. The reason I say the whole point of Will is to gain a more boys audience is because if you think about it, boys can't really relate to Lyra, but they can more to Will.
I personally liked Lyra until the thing with Will because the whole situation made her sound dependent and weak. I liked Lyra musch better when she was independent and it would have been nice if it had been left that way.

[Multiverse]

I got very annoyed with the switch to Will. It is the reason that TSK was might least favorite book in the series and why I had a hard time reading the parts about Will in TAS. Honestly I think the whole point of Will is to catch other boys attention.
In the beginning Lyra is strong and independent and all of a sudden everything depends on Will as if Lyra can't take care of herself. The reason I say the whole point of Will is to gain a more boys audience is because if you think about it, boys can't really relate to Lyra, but they can more to Will.
I personally liked Lyra until the thing with Will because the whole situation made her sound dependent and weak. I liked Lyra musch better when she was independent and it would have been nice if it had been left that way.

Though I agree that TSK is the least interesting of the books (it´s the shortest, and the second part of a trilogy is almost always the worst), I don´t think Will is to blame for that. And sincerely, I don´t think Pullman would put in a character just to alter his target audience.

As for not relating to Lyra - why not? I´m a boy, and personally I believe I can relate to her just fine.

-Multiverse

[tearsintheearth]

Did anyone get annoyed that the protagonist switches in the subtle knife? It goes from awesome Lyra to lame Will. Lyra suddenly turns submissive for the rest of The Subtle Knife, Will becomes the main character. Then she isn't even in the first 70 pages of Amber Spyglass.

Its not really the protagonist switching, as said before they both become the protagonist which is needed because I'm sure that if Lyra had just run around trusting on sheer luck (as she did in NL) the scope of the story would have been lost. Don't get me wrong I loved The Northern Lights but I think that there needed to be another big constant character in it as well apart from Lyra and Pantalaimon.

However, its not like I just put up with will, he's harder to get along with as he's more secretive and apparently not quite as good natured, but he's still a character I would have liked to have a better ending. I think the brilliance in which Pullman portrayed the characters definitely made the books. Also how can we expect Lyra to come through all this unchanged? She had her moments in the Northern Lights but she needed to grow up and I liked the adult Lyra more, I think. I have re-read the trilogy again recently and thought i wouldn't be quite so moved. I was wrong I can't wait for the book of dust, just wish the story could continue somehow..

One point, did anyone else find it a bit weird to see them immediately go the world of the dead after no searching whatsoever? could he have added a bit more there?

Anyway ill stop now, thanks for reading

[Makarov]

One point, did anyone else find it a bit weird to see them immediately go the world of the dead after no searching whatsoever? could he have added a bit more there?

I actually had exactly the same thought during this part. It was building up to Will attempting to use the knife to get into the land the dead, but they cross into it with no extraordinary effort. I think Pullman was saving the real challenge for the dock scene where they separate from their Dæmon's.

so am I supposed to believe they would really go into the underworld when the entire book of Subtle Knife is about how Will just wants to do as his father says. His father tells him to go help Lord Asriel at the end of Subtle Knife. Then at the beginning of Amber Spyglass Will promptly decides to go to the underworld.

Remember that Will just saw his father die in front of him, without the chance to really interact with him. So he has plenty of motivation to get to the land of the dead, to see his father once again.

[JohnT]

I actually had exactly the same thought during this part. It was building up to Will attempting to use the knife to get into the land the dead, but they cross into it with no extraordinary effort. I think Pullman was saving the real challenge for the dock scene where they separate from their Dæmon's.

I don't really think that a long, drawn-out search for the world of the dead (how would one search for it anyway?) would have made very interesting fiction. But yea, Pullman may have made it just a little too easy. No book is perfect.

Remember that Will just saw his father die in front of him, without the chance to really interact with him. So he has plenty of motivation to get to the land of the dead, to see his father once again.

Not to mention, Will has plenty of respect for both Lyra, and for the Aleithiometer at this point. Both of them say that they should go to the World of the Dead.

[tearsintheearth]

While its true that the search didn't take long and at first i though this was a bit of a fault, they are 'following the knife' as the aleithiometer said and so its probable that it made it as easy as possible for them to get there, it isnt after all, just a knife.