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Did Will and Lyra have sex?

This forum is for all stuff related to the final book in the trilogy: The Amber Spyglass.

Did Will and Lyra have sex?

Yes
55
23%
No
61
25%
PP only describes a kiss and that's all that matters/I don't wish to speculate on this issue
55
23%
Only insofar as touching each others Dæmon is an analogy to a sexual act
70
29%
 
Total votes : 241

Did Will and Lyra have sex?

Postby Plasmaticus » Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:16 am

I was on amazon.com with a friend a few days ago, when we read a review about TAS claiming to have read a review somewhere else about Will and Lyra have sex! As appalled as we were, we answered back with another review expressing that after a throughout examination, we found no text/and or graphical (he he) of Will and Lyra 'doing it'. Were almost certain, but I would like to see if anyone else misinterpreted that as well.
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Only insofar as touching each others Dæmon is an analogy to a sexual act
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Postby edd » Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:14 am

Well, there is an area in TAS where Will and Lyra are alone and PP makes no comment on that, and some people have assumed that they had sex then.
(I'd find you the quote from TAS, but I leant my copy to a friend :()

However considering their ages during the book, I thinks it is unlikely that they did.
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Postby Plasmaticus » Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:25 am

Thanks. I also think that. and wouldn't u think dat according to Will and Lyra's poor relationships with their parents, that they probably don't know how to have sex?
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Postby latency » Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:58 am

OK, weired conversation alert....

They didn't need to get 'intimate' (using the politicly correct work ;)), but it doesn't really matter I think...

The story simply relies on the fact they FELT in love.

Everyone knows what to do when they're ready for it really...
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Postby Plasmaticus » Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:11 pm

ya alright. them having sex kinda ruins the kind of relationship they had. it was special because there were more in love then anyone else ever was, and they were KIDS! kids having sex is just wrong.
(wierd conversation, pfffft)
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Postby Marijn » Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:27 pm

It might have been that they had sex but it's not very certain, and in fact it doesnt matter.

Also, I don't think having sex, or knowing how to has anything to do with your relation with your parents... but that's maybe just me.
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Postby Charred » Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:36 pm

as long as this doesn't go on for 57 pages like the one on BTTS.net then it wont be that weird
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Postby Phit » Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:39 pm

Posting my official reply and I apologize in advance:

You may be thinking "How awful of you to address this", you may be thinking "Well, isn't it obvious?" However, did they or didn't they seems to pop up enough to try and figure it out. I'm going to split it all up.



So, we decide to look at the story. Let’s start with the first perspective - Lyra and Will had sex. That said, they did just travel through the world of the dead and back with each other to come out in paradise and realize their love. American publishers also considered this topic dangerous enough to change one of the most important parts of the story - Lyra's moment of realization of her love.

English Temptation: (credit to Grumman at darkmaterials)
As Mary said that, Lyra felt something strange happen to her body. She found a stirring at the roots of her hair: she found herself breathing faster. She had never been on a roller-coaster, or anything like one, but if she had, she would have recognized the sensations in her breast: they were exciting and frightening at the same time, and she had not the slightest idea why.
American Temptation:
As Mary said that, Lyra felt something strange happen to her body. She felt as if she had been handed the key to a great house she hadn’t known was there. A house that was somehow inside her, and as she turned the key, she felt other doors opening deep in the darkness, and lights coming on.

To state the obvious, the English version is more graphic - dealing more with something strange happening in the now. The American version is a bit more PG, something strange happening that will come clear later, a metaphor - more gentle and easily interpreted many ways. Could it be surmised someone felt that the initial more humanly descriptive feeling Lyra has coupled with the moment under the trees would lead the audience to believe they did have sex under the trees?

A brief moment goes to them later sleeping together (side-by-side, folks) under the trees back at the mulefa village. But another key figure in deciding on whether or not they did the deed was that they touched each others dæmons. Momentarily, they'd touched each other's dæmons before - when sprinting through a window away from the battlefields. But on the dunes, they touched purposefully, knowing that their dæmons would retain that shape forever. What exactaly would touching another's dæmon qualify as - sexual? Spiritual? To the men at Bolvangar it was only a way to horrify Lyra into silence, something she felt as a deep violation of her soul, but a violation of the soul, not the body.

Which brings us to the second perspective, they didn't have sex. Will and Lyra are both basically 12 at this point. Will has lived his whole life guarding a mother who could barely teach him the basics of laundry. His father dissappeared when he was a baby still. The only other adult figures in his life were his teachers, who he didn't trust, and his piano teacher, who hadn't seen him in ages. To sum it up: at no point in his life was there a capable adult to teach Will about sex. Did Will even know such an act existed? Lyra lived her whole life around people, mainly two seperate groups - adults, and children. The children were her armies and informants at most points, she was their leader - the bravest, the most determined, with all the best ideas. The adults Lyra considered mainly to be a bore. They were Scholars, forced to hunt her down and quiz her on bits of their knowledge. They were men, ignorant to anything a growing girl would need. Mrs. Lonsdale had more important things to see to than a raggid spoiled urchin such as Lyra. Did Lyra even know sex existed? Let's figure that out:
See above for "Lyra's awakening" - that's Mary Malone teaching Lyra about Love. That's Lyra reacting to an emotion she wasn't aware existed and coming to terms with something like that herself. Yes she loved Pan, yes she loved Roger, but this love Mary Malone is talking about is something different entirely. Turns out our Lyra didn't even know about Love. It would be leaps and bounds to imagine she realized Love and suddenly figured out sex within the same day.

As for touching each other's dæmons, there's not a person among us who could say they know what that's like. Dæmons settling means you've found more about your true self. Dæmons settling at the touch of another means you've found your true self with the help of another - sounds like Love to me, and not a sexual act.

But here's the biggest argument: The Amber Spyglass contains no sex. None at all. Read the words, just for face value, and there is nothing in there. Any idea that Will and Lyra had sex is putting in another paragraph or few pages past that kiss, and those pages do not exist. So, plainly, Will and Lyra did not have sex in the His Dark Materials book trilogy.

"So, plainly, Will and Lyra did not have sex in the His Dark Materials book trilogy." Taking my own former statement: but...the story is not entirely limited to its words, but...the books are exactaly what we have of the story, but...the story can mean different things to different people. And that's the end point.

Which lands us at an unexpected third perspective - Pullman is a really smart guy. Philip Pullman was a genius in his handling of Will and Lyra’s love. He didn’t want his books banned - you can’t put child sex in them. He didn’t want his ending weak - you can’t make Will and Lyra best friends forever. So how exactly do you solve the problem? You don’t put it in. You ignore the problem and leave it to the reader. Did you feel sad at the ending? Me too. Did Lyra and Will have sex at your ending? Not at mine, but possibly at other people's endings. But that’s just the thing, I felt that ending just the same minus the “supreme act of love.” Other’s believed in that sex scene and still felt that ending. And that is what Pullman wanted - whether he claims innocence on his part or not, that man was genius, he knew exactaly the right way to write his story to convince us, the readers, to feel that last sloppy kiss, to cry as Will shattered the knife, to smile with tears as Lyra makes her vow, and to close the book totally satisfied that everything was indeed terribly sad, but right in it’s proper place.

So, in adressing anyone insulting Philip Pullman for having child sex in his books, it ends up that person is only admitting their own perspective - and it happens to be something they hate. And if you hate your perspective, it's not hard to find someone else's that you'll like.


*and I have taken the liberty to disregard any senseless differentiating between love-making, sex, whatever...don't get picky on me.
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Postby rosedrop » Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:56 am

I suppose it doesn't really matter to me either way... feeling love is enough.

But I do love Phit for all that research and effort.... and reminding me to read TAS again, just to feel the heartbreak at the end. That made the Trilogy for me.
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Postby Plasmaticus » Thu Mar 31, 2005 9:28 am

Ya, thanks Phit. I also agree now that wether they had sex or not is not the point, and doesn't really matter. It was just a bit strange for me, i can't really explain it. If they did have sex, i would rather they didn't. it changes my perspective on Lyra and Will, and it does for some other ppl i know as well. The ending really is what raised HDM above anything else i have read. I guess that this discusion is pretty much settled then, but if anyone else has any comments, go ahead and post them. i think that i have until next friday, well, is shanghai. so, thats 9 days... right? at least in shanghai... never mind
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Postby makarios » Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:20 am

that really puts things in perspective for me...
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Postby TheGoldenMonkey » Thu Apr 07, 2005 5:41 am

well, to me it really doesnt matter either, well, their were alone together on a ship for a week, but i dont see how lyra getting a baby has anything to do with the story, and Philly has also said that he wont continue with the books...so i think they didnt have sex, if they did it would be real sequel material
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Postby Donby » Sat Apr 09, 2005 10:24 am

I doesnt matter to me either if they had sex or not byt they were only young children and i doubt PP would have decided that they were going to have sex
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Postby rhonda » Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:26 pm

I personally don't think they had sex, but the priest the Church sent to assasinate Lyra certainly thought they were going to...

P. 415 in the American version-

"Father Gomez found himself praising God for his mission, because it was clearer than ever that the boy and the girl were walking into mortal sin."

So Pullman certainly implants that niggling seed of thought in our minds, via the sneaky priest.
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Postby Donby » Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:38 pm

Very clever, but i did hate that preist
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Postby fire_imp » Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:10 pm

Father Gomez??? He rocked. :twisted:
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Postby Donby » Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:30 pm

What, i didnt like him at all, not because he was trying to kill Lyra just the way he thought he was really good to 'gods' bidding
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Postby Phit » Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:25 pm

Yes, I forgot the priest in that reply. I'd mentioned him before but too much sarcasm.

By the point Father Gomez realizes what he thinks Lyra and Will are about to do, we've already been introduced to many many villified "Church" characters. We saw the thinking of the Church at Bolvangar, and I doubt anyone would agree that slicing souls from children (with many a poor result...like death...) is a good thing. So, Church thinking wrong: score 1. Torture of the witch, who likes torture? Church thinking wrong: score 2. Blowing up Lyra: well, that's not a great idea. Church thinking wrong: score 3. There's a bunch more, plus we've already gotten the "escape from what the Church told us to think" message from the martyred ghost in the world of the dead and Mary Malone's own need for love prompting her to leave the Church because it was forbidden to her there.

As for poor Father Gomez, by now he's been called something like a "shaking zealot who's been working on preemptive absolutiong since he was born and is so disrespected in his own right that Father MacPhail only uses the man's actual name when he wants to use him for something. He's befriended the tualipi, our favorite evil boat-birds that have destroyed the mulefa village. He's also determined that the mulefa wheels are something of Satan: this is the big point to realize. Mulefa and nature are blended together so perfectly that they cultivate each other, something humans have never been able to accomplish. Instead of the people thriving over their environment, the people and environment thrive together and from each other. Father Gomez doesn't realize that he wants to end something that would actually be an ideal of humanity. So from all that I can take from his thinking Lyra and Will were walking into "mortal sin" that it's more than likely he's wrong and his thinking that is proof of the opposite. (although then you could other-foot the shoe and say that after the entire "China" story from Mary sex wouldn't actually be considered "mortal sin"...etc.)
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Postby Donby » Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:13 pm

Very well said and clearly thought through. You really do know your books dont you
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Postby Phit » Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:42 pm

Eh, I'm just ancient as things go, I've had a while to compile it all together.
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Postby Plasmaticus » Wed Apr 13, 2005 11:12 am

Since when is sex mortal sin? my mom told me the story of adam and eve again, she sais they were thrown out of eden because they were tempted by satan, in the form of the snake, but tempted to eat fruit from the special tree. so were does sex come in, and why is revered to with such a negative light?
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Postby Oak » Wed Apr 13, 2005 11:33 am

I don't think they had sex, mainly because they didn't have condoms. :lol:
Nah, seriously, they were too young, and they probably didnt know much about sex, they probably just prefered being with each other..
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Postby makarios » Wed Apr 13, 2005 1:09 pm

read a book called Philip Pullman's Continuum Contemporaries...by Claire Squires...She explained...i dunno, all this sort of metaphorical stuff and said the part when they touched each other's Dæmon was the part when they...did it...it seemed to make sense, since it was so many points and she said it like everyone already knew...nvm...but after reading that im not so sure...she had a couple of really good points in her book, and philip pullman helped write it
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Postby Oak » Wed Apr 13, 2005 1:24 pm

Maybe touching each others Dæmon is sex.
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Postby makarios » Wed Apr 13, 2005 1:31 pm

according to the book, yeah, i guess
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